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Post by philhoward » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:22 am

Here’s another train of thought to consider, Dennis - the fuse is actually there to protect the cable, not the end device.

Think about it and it’s correct - how can a 17/35A fuse equally “protect” a 1A pump and a 2.5A motor equally? How does the 50A battery control fuse protect the 2W lamp in the interior light? Answer is it doesn’t. They’re distribution fuses, not device fuses. Device fuses are individual per device, like the one you would have for a stereo.

If you want to fit a smaller fuse, go ahead. As Jim eluded to, don’t forget the startup current peak though.


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:09 pm

Agree mostly, but the wiper fuse is only in the wiper (and pump) circuit so is not a distribution fuse (well just ignoring the pump...suspect that was just a convenience afterthought to add it to that particular circuit.) so I feel it ought to protect the motor and its associated wiring.
I'd rather a blown fuse due to over current if a wheel-box is seizing so that you are forewarned of a problem than the burned out motor that has occurred.
Car wiring and fusing is so archaic and simplistic....tis all just money saving.

Brings back memories of my career dealing with many complex electronics equipment on ships to component level.....valves even in the beginning... :wink: . and in later years also taking on the whole ships "heavy electrics" and their myriad of fuse boxes and the different considerations of various ratings for protected circuits and those you can afford to lose. One of the most important considerations of course being the beer cooler in the bar for myself and fellow officers. :lol: At least you had proper technical information in those days.

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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:38 am

GTC 1980
Progress-:
14W motor tested and fitted. Wiring all reconnected .....tried steering column switch......nothing moved.. :(
Fault could be-: (from previous 16W motor burn out)
1. defect in column switch (but all 3 contacts at once? bit unlikely
2. Poor connection at plug/socket column switch loom to delay unit loom.
3. Poor connection at delay unit loom plug into unit
4 Poor connection at delay unit out plug to loom to motor.
5. plug and connections on motor.

Action - wiggled around switch plug......sometimes it all worked sometimes not..When it was working via delay unit delay, park, slow and fast all working ok..therefore suspect plug/socket .....cleaned pins and sockets as best as possible ....no difference. But noticed while playing with plug that a movement of the out loom to delay unit got things going. Bypassed delay unit by connecting switch plug direct to motor loom and all worked every time......therefore suspect delay unit/delay unit wiring.
Delay unit is fixed with 2 bolts/nuts inside top of trim side panel (by drivers knee) rather awkward to get at lying in foot well. Release panel screw at front top corner and panel could be bent backwards to get at nuts on delay unit securing screws.......delay unit removed and replugged up to test.
Intermittent with wiggling of plugs. Opened up unit and removed printed circuit board (3 screws). This removes the pins and sockets from the plastic casing making them easier to clean. Gently also cleaned the contacts of the 2 small relays. Partial reassembled and plugged up again and still noticed intermittent action but once going motor kept going.
Put all back together and remounted on trim panel and re-secured panel. Still a bit intermittent all actions.
I eventually noticed that when switch activated on slow or delayed intermittent and nothing was happening that the very SLIGHTEST touch of the switch plug to delay unit wiring loom started things going!! And I mean the very slightest touch.
Perhaps I did not allow enough time for the electrical cleaner fluid to react on the pins/sockets???
Packed up for day as now cold, a bit sore and a bit fed up.
Now wondering if it is the delay unit input plug/socket or relay contacts.

At least I know that if wipers don't work then the slightest tap on the trim panel with drivers left knee will get things going again :mrgreen: :roll:

Dennis


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Post by philhoward » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:02 pm

If there’s a crack in one of the solder joints on the PCB in the delay unit, this could give these symptoms.


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:35 pm

Oh joy Wed. morning thought I would give a quick try of wipers and they worked in all states first time and continued to do so for rest of day. Blue RTV gasket maker on top wheel-box spacer to seal to body and tightened up. Tried wipers again Thursday and again worked first time every time. Will still bear in mind the lkk (left knee knock!). Now to put all cables back up into access hole etc.

Denis (PS hope some time to connect meter up at fuse to measure current while trying to stall the wheel-box spindle)


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:37 pm

Roger Pennington wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:33 pm
Se6/6a used a 14W with a 130 deg gear, so I would have thought it would work equally well?
I wonder why they changed from 14W to 16W for the 6b/GTC?

For Guybetts: ref fitting 14W brush plate to 16W motor:- Having looked at it, it looks as if the spacers under the brush plate to raise the brushes up to be in line with the commutator need to be around 4 to 5 mm? I thought that the original screws might be a bit too short so tried to find out what these screws were. As far as I can see with a thread gauge they are 40 tpi. and the best match seems to be American UNC 4 - 40 so I got some at 3/8th inch to replace the original 1/4 inch (9.5mm instead of 6mm) to allow for the spacers.
However though they seem to screw in reasonably they do not seem to go as far in as I expected...the original screw's diameter measured with a micrometer is 0.109 inch and the new ones are 0.112 inches so hopefully that is what accounts for the stiffness (I want them to be removable if more brushes required in future)
Looking further into the 16W possible refurbish, having rebuilt the brush boxes back onto the base board I was given a quote for brushes from a Southampton firm. They only come in pairs so 2 pairs would be required which came to something like £24! After looking around I have found some slightly larger that will fit the holders better (with just the height needing reducing a small amount). as the tail comes off the end instead of part way down the top face I will drill a small hole in the end of the holder and feed the tail through to be soldered on the holders end tag. I think the original springs will do or maybe can use springs that come with the brushes. These brushes came in at £7.58 for the 4 brushes (free post).
The advantage here is that the original 16W switch is used and being on the front of the motor does not need wires from loom extended and also easier to get at plug to remove from park switch to enable test plug/leads to be put in........I will try and get time to get photos when I fit the brushes. It seems a shame to ditch what seems to be an otherwise good wiper motor (unless of course the commutator windings are too badly burned out!! we shall see (measuring from segment 1 to 6 was 1.1 ohms (minus 0.5 for leads/meter input reading =0.6 ohms.)


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Post by scimjim » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:51 pm

Possibly rationalising stock - the 16W was the GTE rear wiper motor (with the special parking mechanism). A pity I didn’t buy more 16W brush plates when they were available!


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Post by guybetts » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:52 pm

Dennis Nicholas wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:37 pm
For Guybetts: ref fitting 14W brush plate to 16W motor:- Having looked at it, it looks as if the spacers under the brush plate to raise the brushes up to be in line with the commutator need to be around 4 to 5 mm? I thought that the original screws might be a bit too short so tried to find out what these screws were. As far as I can see with a thread gauge they are 40 tpi. and the best match seems to be American UNC 4 - 40 so I got some at 3/8th inch to replace the original 1/4 inch (9.5mm instead of 6mm) to allow for the spacers.
Dennis, I don't recall much difficulty in fixing the new plate back in place, but I can see from my pictures I did use different screws. I was probably lucky in having correct threaded replacements - but then I have an assortment of model engineering bits & bob's, from my grandfather's workshop :)


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Post by Old and Slow » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:23 pm

Bit late to come to the party, but...
For the record, my Kempes Engineers Handbook tells me that 1/8" x 40 tpi is a Whitworth screw thread, and has an effective diameter of 0.109"
Sounds familiar?


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:26 pm

Old and Slow wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:23 pm
Bit late to come to the party, but...
For the record, my Kempes Engineers Handbook tells me that 1/8" x 40 tpi is a Whitworth screw thread, and has an effective diameter of 0.109"
Sounds familiar?
Ah...so what I really need is some 1/8 X 40 X 3/8 Whitworth. That difference in the dia., thread angle of 55 deg for Whit. and 60 for American and thread depth will probably account for being unable to get my 4-40 easily all the way in.

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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:18 pm

Further snippets after further slow progress.

scimric
khttp://www.scimitarweb.co.uk/sgwrs/download/file.php?id=42059 your photo showing gear wheel turned 180 degrees labeled "turned" (see page 2 this discussion). All readers, you will see the switch operating cam sticking down underneath the gearwheel. In a corresponding place on top of the wheel you can see 2 turrets just beyond the teeth. As has been previously pointed out by someone some cams were separate items which had 2 pins that pushed into 2 holes (the turrets) in the gearwheel.The gearwheel would have had 2 corresponding holes on the other side to the cam position. So, scimric, it looks as if all you needed to have done was to prise off the cam and press it into the 180 degrees position!!!!....a somewhat easier process :wink: My 16W certainly has that set up as does the 14W used spare I bought and fitted.

My 16W, 75774E, is now repaired and fully functional with repaired brush holder plate and new brushes. The original brushes were 60 X 60 mm and around 8.5mm long (noting that the wire connecting tail comes out the top surface of the brush so moves in a groove cut away in the top of the brush holder.
4 New brushes obtained from CARBON-BRUSHES, COATBRIDGE, LANARKSHIRE. (www.mrcarbonbrush.com) via ebay item 112198944429 item 39 at the princely sum of £7.58 (need 4 because motor takes 3 brushes and these new are sold in pairs)(price includes £0.40 discount for buying 2 pairs!! and includes VAT and post. They are slightly larger all round at 12mm X 7.5 X 6.5 mm and the connector wire comes out the end instead of on top.
Note item 36 is nearer size but more expensive!
Modifications.
1. Use file to separate brass terminal from end of connecting wire and take spring off. Dab of solder on end of wire to prevent fraying.
2. Use sandpaper/emery on a flat surface to rub down brush surfaces. Width is almost right for a good sliding fit in old brush holders...my old 6mm brushes were a bit sloppy side to side for my liking so rubbing down of 6.5mm till nice sliding fit in holder.
3. Rub down the height from 7.5mm towards 6 mm till again a nice sliding fit in brush holder.
Re-do the chamfers on the long edges once you have have got width/height right.
4. Length. Use a small junior hacksaw to cut to length of around 9 mm overall...if using old springs they become a coil-bound length of 3.6mm and the distance from spring to commutator is 10.4mm so 9mm allows spring to uncoil a bit while still getting longest possible brush in.
5. Square end of brush now needs to have curve put back to fit against commutator which was 24mm Dia. on my 16W. I just happened to find in my hoard of bits a round pin (old bush?) of just under that diameter so that with 2 turns of emery wound on and stuck in place the dia was just right. Holding the brush square to the pin it was moved carefully up and down the length of the pin till the curve just reached each side....and a gentle brush on each edge so sharp edges were not presented to the commutator......they will wear in to the exact shape.
The pin I used.
DSCF1205.JPG
DSCF1205.JPG (278.12 KiB) Viewed 1311 times
6. Drill a 1.5mm hole in middle of back end of brush holder. Feed wire through spring and through hole, sliding brush into holder and solder wire end to holder (original attachment point needs cleaning up and tinning and with small blob of solder Much heat needed to do this successfully quickly - 60W iron?) I then used 30W iron to melt solder on wire and blob together. The trick is in holding end of wire in just the right place while doing the soldering.

Hole in end.
DSCF1185.JPG
DSCF1185.JPG (288.55 KiB) Viewed 1311 times
After clean and blobs of solder on holder for connecting wires.
DSCF1197.JPG
DSCF1197.JPG (262.26 KiB) Viewed 1311 times
7. final job after cutting to length of 3 brushes is to cut down the fast speed brush to half width. Slow brush is in line with common and fast brush is offset further round from slow. Note the right way round for this brush is the cut away bit nearest the slow brush.
DSCF1198.JPG
DSCF1198.JPG (393.32 KiB) Viewed 1311 times
Note: The old spring just fitted nicely over the small protrusion on the end of the new brushes - may need slight twisting in direction of untwisting spring while pushing onto protrusion - thus holding spring in centre of brush.

CURRENT DRAWN
On the bench connected to 12V battery via test socket and leads (from sun-motorcycles on ebay £6.49 - Classic Mini Wiper Motor Connector repair lead loom harness.....fits 14W and 16W park switch)
Slow 2 to 2.6 amps. Fast 3.2 to 4.4 amps.
With lid off so I could hold the connecting rod to try and stop the motor the current only rose a bit to a bit below 5 amps on my Avo Minor analogue meter. So a 10 amp fuse instead of the 35 amp I feel is still a safer bet to protect the motor and wiring.

Dennis


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:49 pm

Dennis Nicholas wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:08 am
Thanks for all replies so far ,all very useful and I will be recording various bits and printing out to put in my workshop manual.
Delayed further investigation yesterday by visitors and most of today by eye test and visit to dentist to make urgent appointment for another broken tooth..........must stop eating Scimitars.
Note 16W does NOT mean it is 16 watt motor ; it is just the model number!
16W motor = 4Amps. 14W =

Everything now hinges on being able to get passenger side wheel-box out to inspect and free it up......it still feels a bit stiffer than the driver side which is now nice and free.....don't understand what could be causing this other than possible build up of rust on removable plate which would account also for lack of in and out movement of the spindle??
Am also rather worried about dropping nuts....where would they fall into?? Ditto the spanner!

ard126k Alex.
Will bite the bullet when next time available and remove cable clamps etc. to free up wiring but the opening does look rather small to get a hand right in far enough to reach the box. The wiring goes up through this hole in the inner moulding and off to behind the instrument area so wiring can't be taken out of the opening (visions of causing more trouble from upset wiring). What size spanner for nuts?

Also can it be confirmed passenger side box is 40 tooth?
Answer is that passenger is 40 tooth for shorter wipe arc and driver side is 32 tooth for larger wipe arc.
Dennis


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:29 pm

Measured washer pump current at 1.63 Amps continuous running.
So with 16W motor taking <5A + 1.63A washer = 6.63A a 10 amp should be ok. (current for glass fuse fast blow should not exceed constant runing value of 75% of fuse rating: 75% of 10A = 7.5 amps)
Have put in 10A fuse and run 16W wiper on fast on dry screen then quickly operated washer and all continued ok.

Aaaaargh. they stopped as I changed from slow to fast......first thought fuse BUT remembered the LKK (see earlier post.....Left Knee Knock!) and slight tap on panel by left knee immediately restored movement. So still a small problem to solve :cry:

Dennis


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Post by Old and Slow » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:00 pm

I've heard of "green fingers" making things happen, but "green knees?"...


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:28 am

Old and Slow wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:00 pm
I've heard of "green fingers" making things happen, but "green knees?"...
Ah..... sorry that should be knobbly knees......so lkkk


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