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Dennis Nicholas
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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:55 pm

1980 GTC. Still with 16W wiper motor. Right hand drive car.
I had some problem with intermittent running of wipers and slow running so have striped the motor......oh dear rather black and heated looking windings and insulation but think it will still be ok. The brush gear plate is fried and 2 brush holders broken free, so at least a new (14W) one of those.
Attention turned to wheel-boxes; passenger side rather stiff and driver side a bit less so. I drilled a 3.5mm hole in the spindle just below the splined part and using a small syringe injected some molyslip (and some AFMT). The drivers side has freed up adequately but the passenger side I feel is still a bit too stiff and I would not like to burn out a new brush gear plate. The driver side has a small amount of play side to side to side and lifts in and out a little BUT the passenger side only has a small side to side play and NO in and out movement.
I want to get the wheel-box out but can't see where the slot in the body is that is talked about in previous discussions......I can see one slot but that is full of wiring (see photo). The workshop manual does mention peeling back some of the insulation on the body to get at a slot.....is that to the right of the wiring slot??
The photo needs rotating 90 degrees clockwise so wiring going off upwards into slot....the left side of the photo is the underneath of what you see lying in footwell looking up.
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Further question...wheel-box teeth is it 32 for passenger side and 40 for driver side?

can anyone confirm the 14W brush gear holder will fit the 16W motor?

This photo shows the hole drilled in the spindle under the splined part....
Last edited by Dennis Nicholas on Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:52 pm

The missing spindle hole photo. As you can see the hole goes right through the outer and you can see the spindle inside.
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Post by ard126k » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:02 pm

Dennis
If you pull all the wiring out of the hole (might need to undo that big P-clip in your photo) you should see the wheelbox. I assume you've already taken the relays off. Another matter getting spanners in there of course!
Good luck
Alex.


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Post by scimrick » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:35 pm

Hi Dennis
14W brush plate different from 16W brush plate, not interchangeable.

I gave up refettling my 16W motor on GTC. Very recently replaced with 14W motor from a Rialto(?). Just needed to extend wiring loom by 100mm at the 5 way connector box as the connecting plug on 14W is on windscreen face but 16W is on front face.

download/file.php?mode=view&id=41945

The Rialto gearwheel has 130 deg same as GTC NB the 16W 130 gearwheel is much larger diameter and will not fit in 14W casing. The connector /ferrule(?) to the wiper rack was exactly as the existing 16W, and the dimension was identical from the circular mounting bracket to the end of the wiper rack.
As 14W parts are still readily available it was easier to swap over than faff around with a duff 16W.
However, if you want originality / concours then choice is yours!
Richard
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Post by Roger Pennington » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:33 pm

Se6/6a used a 14W with a 130 deg gear, so I would have thought it would work equally well?


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Post by guybetts » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:15 pm

Dennis, I rebuilt my 16W with parts from AES. It involved a bit of modification, mostly as the integral plug with the brush plate fixes differently than the original - but a cable tie and a bit of silicon sealant fixed that - see pics.
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Original in situ, with damaged brush
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Comparing original and new brush plate
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New brush plate fitted

The new brushes are slotted "in" the brush plate, rather than mounted "on" as the original, which required spacers behind the vero-board to position the brushes in the right place.

I can't seem to locate a picture of the cable plug, so will try a remember to get a pic when I next venture out to the GTC

It's been working fine since I did this 2 years ago

Guy


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Post by scimrick » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:54 pm

Roger The Rialto one had been fitted with new brushes and was less than half price of a well used 16W motor, plus I had a spare 14W brush set left over from a previous car.

Dennis forgot to say if go down 14W route the gear wheel needs removing and refixing 180 deg around, to change from Right park to Left park. Easy enough to do but dont lose any of the washers off the gearwheel shaft.

Guy my 16W motor shaft was in a heck of a state and commutator showed damage, if there was less damage I had planned to modify the 14W brush plate similar to how you did it.

All - just proves more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. Please note no cats harmed on my GTC mods!

Richard



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Post by Roger Pennington » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:45 pm

scimrick wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:54 pm
Roger The Rialto one had been fitted with new brushes and was less than half price of a well used 16W motor, plus I had a spare 14W brush set left over from a previous car.
Richard, with hindsight, I suspect my last post was ambiguous. I realise the Rialto motor was your best choice in the circumstances, I was simply making the point that as the majority of 6-series cars used the 14W motor anyway, then using the 14W was no disadvantage compared to the 16W. :)

A couple of things worth noting though -

14W motors are available with either park direction; it's indicated by an arrow on the casing. So the need to change that, depends on which one you choose.

Also, 14W motors are available in 2-speed and single-speed versions. The 2-speed versions have the 3 brushes and an extra wire in the connector block. I have a vague feeling I've read that you can change one to the other by changing the brush plate and the wiring, but I've never done it, so don't take my word for it.


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:08 am

Thanks for all replies so far ,all very useful and I will be recording various bits and printing out to put in my workshop manual.
Delayed further investigation yesterday by visitors and most of today by eye test and visit to dentist to make urgent appointment for another broken tooth..........must stop eating Scimitars.

16W motor = 1.4Amps. 14W = 1.16 (or rounded to 1.2Amp) so slightly easier for column switch and other contacts!

Everything now hinges on being able to get passenger side wheel-box out to inspect and free it up......it still feels a bit stiffer than the driver side which is now nice and free.....don't understand what could be causing this other than possible build up of rust on removable plate which would account also for lack of in and out movement of the spindle??
Am also rather worried about dropping nuts....where would they fall into?? Ditto the spanner!

ard126k Alex.
Will bite the bullet when next time available and remove cable clamps etc. to free up wiring but the opening does look rather small to get a hand right in far enough to reach the box. The wiring goes up through this hole in the inner moulding and off to behind the instrument area so wiring can't be taken out of the opening (visions of causing more trouble from upset wiring). What size spanner for nuts?

Also can it be confirmed passenger side box is 40 tooth?
Answer is that passenger is 40 tooth for shorter wipe arc and driver side is 32 tooth for larger wipe arc.
Dennis
Last edited by Dennis Nicholas on Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by David Tew » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:48 am

Hi Dennis,
I have replaced both wheelboxes on the Coupe and it was a tight squeeze unless you happen to have 8-inch long, double-jointed fingers and eyeballs on bendable stalks. I doubt the GTC will be much easier, unfortunately.
Dennis Nicholas wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:08 am
Everything now hinges on being able to get passenger side wheel-box out to inspect and free it up......
There should be inspection holes in the dash immediately behind the wheelboxes and close to the screen - probably hidden under the felt. One tip is not to fully undo the two nuts holding the wheelbox onto the rack, just loosen them and there will be enough room to waggle the box out after undoing the spindle nut. I was glad to have taken them out as the hard rubber wedges on the blind-side were badly split.
Dennis Nicholas wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:08 am
Am also rather worried about dropping nuts....where would they fall into?? Ditto the spanner!
Once again I can only speak from experience on the Coupe but any dropped bolts/spanners should drop down through the engine bay (mine did). Whether you'll ever find them again is another thing! :wink:

Have fun.


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Post by ard126k » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:09 am

From memory 5/16 AF spanner.
I had a bundle of spare wiring tucked up in the hole which blocked access. Once that was pulled out things were easier. Like you I didn't want to remove the loom.
I took the wheelboxes out for the repaint so it must be possible!


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Post by Roger Pennington » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:10 pm

There's a thread on here about wiper wheelboxes for the 6-series, giving part nos, I think it may be in the "how to" guides


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Post by Roger Pennington » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:17 pm



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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:36 am

Almost all is revealed!

Wiring harness released and excess all pulled out of aperture but no way hand can get in there.....can just see nearest nut on wheelbox back plate.
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After pulling off insulation and cutting away at least an inch of back of opening can now get hand in and cranked 3/8AF ring spanner to slacken off wheelbox back plate nuts to release both bundy tubes.
TIP: release furthest nut first as nearest nut will hold back plate tight enough to wheelbox to allow furthest nut to be turned off with brushing finger tip rather than 1/8 of a flat at a time with spanner.
Once bundy tube from motor is removed (rack obviously pulled right out already) the wheelbox body fastening nut can be removed and the box wangled about a bit to get it off the end of the box to box bundy and get it out of the cut out......a bit difficult as harness still gets a bit in way up in between the two body mouldings and getting the splined end through the outer body hole takes a little forcing..
Replacing seemed impossible to get box over bundy because even with so much moulding cut away there is not enough room to get hand in and fingers to guide bundy into box. Blinding light of a tip ......put thinish screwdriver into left opening and right through box to protrude a little out of other bundy opening and guide tip into bundy and wangle box around till it goes over the belled out end of box-to-box bundy. Now put motor-to-box bundy into box (having withdrawn screwdriver and careful not to let box come off first bundy........do up nearest nut first to hold back plate in as far as possible, as above, so that at this stage furthest can be turned by brushing finger tip against it and bundy bell end will be trapped in its slot. Slacken nearest nut so bundy can twist in box. Now wangle box to get splined spindle out through hole in scuttle top......again wiring loom very much in way and needs quite a bit of persuation to move further towards back of inside of opening. At this stage realise you have put box in upside down so spindle points towards windscreen (wiper would also move in wrong direction!!!!!! remove and start again using many not nice words. Thinking while lying on back across sill and edge of seat "my hip replacement surgeon would not be impressed with this".
All back in again and find that the furthest nut can only be turned about 1/8th of a flat at a time with the cranked ring spanner and being in an even more uncomfortable position with head and torso higher up so can see into cut out opening to view nut to guide spanner on to it. The stud that the nut is being threaded onto seems to have become so much longer especially as nut has tightened up enough for fingertip no longer able to turn it so patience and 1/8th of a turn at a time with cranked ring spanner must prevail.
TIP. I slightly saw this coming as the original nuts are so thin. I found in my box of "small nuts" a deeper 3/16 UNF 32 tpi nut so the ring spanner would easier locate over it....(only other 3/16 X 32 is BSF and since the UNF is 60 deg thread angle and BSF is 55 deg a BSF gets too tight to screw on).

I found a SEALY model LED180 inspection lamp to be invaluable as it was small enough and bright enough to be positioned right in between the 2 mouldings and give plenty of light to work by........and with 3 hours before it goes out and needs recharging that was then a good excuse to pack up and go bo-bos.

So what to use to seal between the outer chamfered spacer and the body to seal against water?? mastic? silicone sealer? RTV?

Dennis (now the back ache) More pics tomorrow to show larger cut out opening and wheel box.


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Post by Dennis Nicholas » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:02 am

SCIMRICK... what is the lucas part number for the 14W 130 degree motor? Is it 75683H (stamped on the tin cover plate).

Does anyone have a correlation table of Lucas part numbers and what the make up is for each different motor for each number.
e.g. My scimitar 1980 GTC is 75774E 16W with 130 degree gear wheel: 12V 11 80 (dont know what the 54072019 stamped at the bottom refers to) passenger wheelbox 40 teeth; driver box 32 teeth.

The two sets of digits after the embossed 12V e.g. 11 80 is apparently the date of manufacture (week and year or month and year??)

It can be noted that MGBGT used a similar motor but 14W and 125degree wheel, but they seem a bit in short supply with only lesser degree wheels fitted in some others. (16W 130 wheel will apparently not fit in 14W motor)
Do we need to have 130 degrees wheels or will lesser give adequate wiper sweep (in conjunction with number of teeth in wheelbox)? It appears some gearwheels have extra holes to enable the peg on the gear wheel to be repositioned to give lesser/larger arc.

Details welcome please on your combinations......Lucas part number on plate? - 14/16 W? - number on motor gear wheel?; number of teeth in wheelbox (with Lucas part number for that box)? ; Arc of sweep of each wiper?

Unfortunately we seem to be suffering with this modern disease of associating items with car makes rather than giving part details so selection can be made for a car.

75683H seems to be the Lucas part for a 14W with 130 wheel (these were used by Morgans on (some?) models)

I am trying to amass details and record them on the workshop manual/spares figures for posterity and listing details in a table.

Dennis


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