Newcomer

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nickkeyser
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Re: Newcomer

Post by nickkeyser » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:20 pm

Yup, thats the car. no idea where it is now, but its lost all its bodywork.
reliant-reviver wrote:1300 CVH block, RST 1600 pistons, Fiesta RST exhaust manifold and turbo, twin choke Weber with rising rate fuel regulator, 1 bar of boost and away you go!
I had a pretty lengthy conversation about doing this with the chap at torque of the devil, who owned and built a fiesta with a twinchraged CVH in the boot - claiming to be the worlds most powerful CVH or somthing like that. its all possible, the only question mark is if the crank will take it.

EDIT; reading here; http://www.uphillracers.com/showthread. ... -5196.html unless i have miss understood, this implies that you could run a 1.6 (or even a 1.9+) CVH turbo, in the 2001cc + class, on the basis that there was an 1800 Turbo ss1 made from the factory, whether or not you would have a problem with the fact that both engines came from different manufacturers. hmmmm...

Phil, have you found if an fiesta RST manifold and fits in an SS1? I know the escort one puts the turbo where the passengers toes go (not a problem for me).



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Re: Newcomer

Post by choughton » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:58 pm

Ok so i have an idea, please feel free to shoot it down at any time.

1800 CVH
forged pistons and stronger rods (if i can find some that fit)
a mid range supercharger
standalone fuel management system

Does the standard CVH head have to be used, or could a 16 valve head from a zetec be used within the rules?

Ive been looking into 1800 zetec pistons and if they will fit.



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Re: Newcomer

Post by scimjim » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:26 pm

For Mod Prod (2011) from the Blue Book:

Engine
12.6.1. The engine block must be externally identifiable as that fitted to the original model or specified option and it must remain in the same capacity class as the original car or the manufacturer’s specified option for the model and engine. Modification to all components is permitted.
12.6.2. With the exception of any engine fitted to a vehicle complying with 12.1, the engine must be of a make and type produced in at least 1,000 identical units and fitted to a vehicle originally available through the normal commercial channels of a land vehicle manufacturer.
12.6.3. Induction system free.
12.6.4. Oil coolers, dry sump lubrication systems or additional water radiators are permitted within the periphery of the bodywork.
12.6.5. Must be capable of being started from an onboard power source operable by the driver when seated normally.
12.6.6. Engine and transmission must remain in a similar position within the vehicle and in the same position relative to each other as in the original model.
Transmission
12.7.1. Transmission layout to remain as original.
12.7.2. Gearbox free.12.7.3. Driven axle(s) free (see 12.8.4).
Suspension
12.8.1. Additions and modifications to springs, shock absorbers or suspension height are free.
12.8.2. The original type of suspension must be maintained (e.g. twin wishbone set-up cannot replace a single wishbone suspension; a sliding pillar cannot be replaced by a MacPherson strut; a trailing link cannot be replaced by wishbones or coaxial springing).
12.8.3. A live rear axle may not be replaced by an independent system or De Dion.
12.8.4. A live rear axle is allowed location links. If leverarm shock absorbers are an original fitment, they may be replaced by a single location link.
12.8.5. Suspension pick-up point positions may be altered, providing the suspension system is maintained as being the original type.
12.8.6. Road springs are free.
12.8.7. The wheelbase must be to the dimensions of the original vehicle, plus or minus 2% or 5cm whichever is the greater.


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Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
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Re: Newcomer

Post by philhoward » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:31 pm

If it helps, the "Rooster" (1600 CVH with Turbo Technics turbo) was a dealer option, so it was effectively an "option"....but not a manufacturer option. The fact there's an 1800 turbo, it wasn't a CVH might mess up 12.6.1 but as always, the MSA rules are "interesting"...


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Re: Newcomer

Post by Raz987 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:05 pm

choughton wrote:Ok so i have an idea, please feel free to shoot it down at any time.

1800 CVH
forged pistons and stronger rods (if i can find some that fit)
a mid range supercharger
standalone fuel management system

Does the standard CVH head have to be used, or could a 16 valve head from a zetec be used within the rules?

Ive been looking into 1800 zetec pistons and if they will fit.
Has anyone mentioned budget yet?

What are you're plans for brakes and suspension/chassis? There's not a lot available off the shelf...


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Re: Newcomer

Post by Nick » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:23 am

Just on the subject of roll bars.

Performance and Protection made me a 4 point bar in 2008. At the time in cost £ 352.50 fitted, including VAT. It is a nice job. ( see Avatar)

Whilst this does not give the level of protection of the full 6 point with side bars, it is MSA acceptable (mine is Log Booked for ModSport) PROVIDING you lower the drivers floor enough to get yout head well below the roll bar. It also allows the fitting of the standard hood. Please note for any of these bars you need to modify the fuel tank.

PS

Raz,

Good to hear from you :D , how are things?


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Re: Newcomer

Post by nickkeyser » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:51 pm

But the SSSC dont run any classes as such, only categories. so turboing a 1600 SS1, inceasing to 2240cc doesnt put it up a class, so is technically legal in the SSSC. No?

A lot of motorclubs run an 1401-2000cc class, but theres a growing trend for an upto 1401-1800cc class in a lot of championships, so picking an engine size to commit to outside of the SSSC is difficult - thats one of the things that puts me off a 1300 CVH Turbo.

The dealer option turbo kit is interesting, wonder what the MSA would make of that.

The K series was fitted to sabres - but is it acceptable in an SS1?

I beleive the 1800 and 1400CVH are refered to as the iCVH, apposed to the conventional 1300 and 1600CVH. The 1300, 1400 and 1600 where all seen in SS1's, which pretty much leaves the door open to fitting anything CVH based. Wonder if the ford DOHC or similar head would fit on a CVH block?

Just thinking out loud. Maybe we could come up with a few questions we could put to the MSA to find out exactly what engines we can run. Im a long way off swapping out my warmed up 1600CVH, but at some point its not going to cut the mustard.



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Re: Newcomer

Post by philhoward » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:05 pm

Only issue with a "reverse ZVH" is a lack of oil drain from one of the camshafts - there aren't any in that side of the block. Not an issue the other way, as its just blocked off (holes in the block). The i-CVH is the 1800/1900 tall block (+4mm block height, +8mm stroke to make the same as the Zetec 88mm), and not really anything to do with the 1400.

If anyone is interested, I have a set of 82mm forged pistons with a 23mm gudgeon pin hole and compression height is about right for a CVH ; for rods you can get custom ones for the same price as off the shelf ones anyway so won't make much difference. These look to originally possibly be for a Honda D16A engine, but not 100% sure. I'm not going to be using them, so they're up for grabs; worth £100 to anyone?


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Re: Newcomer

Post by nickkeyser » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:11 pm

Could you pipe the oil drain to the sump on a reverse ZVH?

Edit; it has been done according to snippets on the net. So there's an engine option I like. 1800CVH short engine, 1800Zetec head, jenveys - got o be good for 170hp?
Last edited by nickkeyser on Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Newcomer

Post by scimjim » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:14 pm

am I right that standard UK (1.3, 1.6, 1.8.) are 80mm bore but the US 1.9 is 82?

if so - reserve them for me please - at least until I have a proper look at this 1.9 to see what's inside it :-)
Last edited by scimjim on Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Jim King

SECURE DRY STORAGE FOR YOUR SCIMITAR

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), 1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

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Re: Newcomer

Post by CNHSS1 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:24 pm

nickkeyser wrote:But the SSSC dont run any classes as such, only categories. so turboing a 1600 SS1, inceasing to 2240cc doesnt put it up a class, so is technically legal in the SSSC. No?

if its legal for MSA classes is legal for SSSC as we adhere to MSA regs, but going back to Jims post
Engine
12.6.1. The engine block must be externally identifiable as that fitted to the original model or specified option and it must remain in the same capacity class as the original car or the manufacturer’s specified option for the model and engine. Modification to all components is permitted.


If the original car was a 1300/1400 SS1 then its in the 1400-2000 class, a turbo'd 1600CVH = 2240cc so not within the original cars class making it illegal for MSA and thus SSSC imho

A lot of motorclubs run an 1401-2000cc class, but theres a growing trend for an upto 1401-1800cc class in a lot of championships, so picking an engine size to commit to outside of the SSSC is difficult - thats one of the things that puts me off a 1300 CVH Turbo.

motorclubs can alter engine splits, yes, but this isnt a growing trend in my opinion, used to be 1700cc when the Kent X flows were all the rage, changed to mirror car trends and more went to 2000cc. If you compete in 2 championships, and only one mirrors MSA National series (like the SSSC), then you need to drag your local club into line, not the National Championships Nick :wink:

The dealer option turbo kit is interesting, wonder what the MSA would make of that.
If the question is asked, i'll wager Sports Libre, or at best Modified Sepcialist Production. I think you'd struggle to prove it was anything more than a conversion though, you know what the MSA are like :roll:

The K series was fitted to sabres - but is it acceptable in an SS1?
No, the K series Sabre was made by a different, albeit related company (ie 3rd incarnation after being bust twice!!

I beleive the 1800 and 1400CVH are refered to as the iCVH, apposed to the conventional 1300 and 1600CVH. The 1300, 1400 and 1600 where all seen in SS1's, which pretty much leaves the door open to fitting anything CVH based. Wonder if the ford DOHC or similar head would fit on a CVH block?
wasnt the 1400 in the SS1 on a carb rather than injection? As you say, if the engine comes from the CVH family and is within capacity of the original car, then yes--all good. In fact in ModProd cyl head is free, if you can find a better 16v head to fit the CVH block, sort of ZVH in reverse (CVtec??)
its my understanding that its the CVHs bottom end which is the part that lets the CVH down more so than its head though, hence the ZVH hybrid


Just thinking out loud. Maybe we could come up with a few questions we could put to the MSA to find out exactly what engines we can run. Im a long way off swapping out my warmed up 1600CVH, but at some point its not going to cut the mustard.

it can be done, but be careful what you wish for. In my experience asking for clarification invariably causes more trouble for the SSSC competitors than the originator ever intended even if the outcome is beneficial to that one individual

That said, its nowt to do with me anymore, so ignore me :wink:


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Re: Newcomer

Post by CNHSS1 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:30 pm

nickkeyser wrote:- thats one of the things that puts me off a 1300 CVH Turbo.
for me, the smaller capacity turbo motor may struggle in the SSSC not due to the regs, but due to the scoring system.
its likely to be a screamer 8) , power at the top end and lower on torque or more accurately narrow power band than a 1.8/1.9CVH or similar hybrid. Bound to be more powerful, but careful calculation would be needed to ensure the high hp figures dont get wiped out on handicap.

interesting idea though, wheres 'Statto' Eades when we need him, he'd work it out :lol:


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Re: Newcomer

Post by philhoward » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:34 pm

1800 and 2.0 zetec heads are the same, Nick - only the 1600 got baby valves...

Not sure either will help but I also have 2 engines sat in the garage - an 1800 CVH with a 1600 EFi head (CR perfect for turbo...) And a 2.0 zetec - but no idea which one to use! I'm not intending sprinting though, so a moot point almost!

Nick - I think the winning combo is a torque monster that runs out of puff...


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Re: Newcomer

Post by philhoward » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:36 pm

Oh - also have an Eaton M45 as well...


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Re: Newcomer

Post by nickkeyser » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:44 pm

Where does the 1400-2000cc thing come from, the classes are championship decided sent they? IIRC It's not in the blue book and not on the SSSC regs either? If there are on CC based classes in the SSSC you can't be disqualified for increasing CC? It would only be a problem when you competed outside the SSSC.

I'm defo going to be looking into putting a Zetec head onto a cvh bottom end. I'm watching an 1800zetec head on eBay ATM. The CVH bottom can handle 200hp in an RST without internal work - aparently, so shouldn't be an issue an NA engine. The ZVH was a cheap and easy way to get a 2.0 'cvh' without changing all the manifolds etc - i think.

Shame the CVH and zetec arnt closer relatives really and you can't get away with running a Zetec straight up. From what I've read zetec internals can be made to fit in a cvh block. A real blue book special, but foot for though.



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