Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by Moschops » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:52 pm

Hello all.

When starting the SS1 today, it didn't start. Well, these things happen. Pretty sure it's an electrical issue, and probably a connection fault, based on the following:

When turning the key in the barrel to position I, nothing happens. No dashboard lights, none of that.
When turning the key in the barrel to position II, nothing happens. No dashboard lights, none of that, and no sound of the fuel pump which I'm sure used to be a sound, because I would habitually pause here for a second to let the fuel pump go for a bit.
When turning the key in the barrel to position III, the engine turns over and reaches the stage at which I would consider it to have started. Releasing the key and letting it spring back to position II causes it to cut off again.

I have a half-memory that sometimes in the past, when going through position I or II, I would sometimes have to wiggle the key a bit before the magic happened.

Took off the cover and gave it a spray with the electrical spray (not WD40, but a more proper electrical spray) and that didn't magically fix things, so now I'm going to have to do the usual electrical checks. I'll start with all the fuses, and then start digging into the wiring connections from the barrel onwards with wiring diagram to hand.

However, it's always worth asking in case someone knows of something particularly to check, or a particularly weak connection that would do this, or other such?


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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by peter freeman » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:07 pm

Check the battery connections and the cables to it both ends - if no lights ( especially the ign one ) then you have no power to anywhere. Check the switch has not lost its switch wafers from the end of the barrel.



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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by scimjim » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:11 pm

Yep - switch is knackered :(


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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by Moschops » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Fiddling with the light switch doesn't activate the lights, although it does make the little panel next to the heater knob light up. Which is interesting. Although I'm sure someone else here once saw it do that and remarked that theirs had never done such a thing and they didn't even know it could light up!

Looking at the wiring diagram, it looks like the horn should be pretty bulletproof; if that doesn't work, there's very little connection to check. I think you're right; this fault is likely to be very close to the barrel. When I'm out there again with enough light to see, that'll be where I start.

Scimjim, if the outside of the switch (by which I think I mean the barrel assembly - magic cylinder into which I insert and twist the key), am I looking at a whole replacement one of those? From the relevant diagram, looks like I should be able to detach the barrel assembly fairly easily and then give it a testing with the the multimeter.


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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by scimjim » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:43 pm

The heater knob has a bulb which is on the sidelight circuit.

The electrical part of the ignition switch detaches from the mechanical part of the barrel. I think all small sports have a small grub screw holding them in?


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SECURE DRY STORAGE FOR YOUR SCIMITAR

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by Moschops » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:57 pm

Aha. Getting somewhere. A run over the fuses revealed a couple that weren't happy, but not (I think) directly relevant to starting. Nice to see the clock turn back on! Need to buy a big bag of fuses; that's something for me to do. From a reputable supplier rather than eBay special.

Anyway, unscrewed the left hand part of the ignition barrel (i.e. the bit of it that the wires are soldered onto). Observed the interior while I turned the key; that all looks fine.

Inserted into the unscrewed, left-hand part, a hex key that allowed me to turn it manually. For those following along in the parts list, this is section T7, part number 94159 ("Ignition Switch c/w Harness"). Turning that myself manually with a chunky hex key. Same behaviour, although I found that for a short time, there was a turn location just after position II (so into the spring-return section that requires constant turning torque on the key to hold it) where the instrument panel lit up and the fuel pump could be heard doing its job.

Which leads me to believe that I've got a faulty part 94159 ("Ignition Switch c/w Harness").

I would, of course, welcome any and all diagnoses from the above set of symptoms. That the panel lit up and the fuel pump activated for a short time makes me think that the problem doesn't go any deeper than this at the moment. Really really hope!


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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by scimjim » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:10 pm

As the starter turned and the fuel pump worked, in the spring loaded position 3, you have main power to the switch (brown wire) and it’s contacting correctly in position 3 (white/brown). So check with a multimeter to confirm you’re not getting any power out on the green white in position 1 or the white on position 2.

The only other thing I can think of would be the plug on the other end of the ignition switch (94159) - the pins may have pulled out or corroded?


Jim King

SECURE DRY STORAGE FOR YOUR SCIMITAR

Current: SE5 (8Ball), TI SS1 (snotty), 1600 SS1 (G97), 1600 SS1 (C686CCR), 2.5TD SE5a (diesel 5a), 6 x random other SS1s.
Previous: SE5, 3 x SE5a, 2 x SE6a, 3 x SE6b, GTC, 2.9i GTC, 3 x 1600 SS1, 1300 SS1, Mk1 Ti Sabre, Mk1.5 CVH Sabre
Chief mechanic for: 1400 K series SS1 (Megan3), 1400 CVH EFi SS1 (Grawpy), 1300 SS1 (Number One) & Sarah's coupe.
CURE THE FAULT - NOT THE SYMPTOMS

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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by Moschops » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:16 pm

I followed the wires back by hand from the part to a connection block; couldn't get a look at it but it felt like it was connected fine.

Image



Looking at the back of the part, I foolishly assumed that I'd find high-resistance across all four electrodes of interest with the key out, and I would be able to turn the key to the various positions and check for a much lower resistance across the common high (whichever of these four connections that is) to indicate connection. No such luck; resistance values all over the place. I'll dig out some crocodile clips for the multimeter, but if someone could tell me what changes I should expect to see across which electrodes that would be very helpful.


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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by Ford » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:28 pm

I believe it should be:

Brown = Battery 12v
Green/white = P1 12v
White = P2 12v
White/red = P3 (spring) 12v


SS1 1316

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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by philhoward » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:06 pm

You’ll get all sorts of strange resistance valves unless you unplug it from the rest of the loom first :)


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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by Moschops » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:14 pm

Looks like it wouldn't be so much "unplug" as "desolder", which would be a pain. Once I've dug out these crocodile clips, I'll experiment with voltages.

I'll need to find a convenient earth under there somewhere, and thence (if I read the above right) with the keys out I should find the brown-wire electrode to be 12V, and all the other zero. Thence, in position I, the green/white to go to 12V, position II to bring the white (labelled 5 on the connection itself, as in the image) to 12V, and position III to bring the white/red to 12V.

Anything else indicates a broken ignition switch. Anyone know where I can source a replacement?


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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by peter freeman » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:31 pm

Try Mark Wilson of a switch



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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by Ian Lock » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:30 pm

Look at my thread " Ignition Switch Not Working " that has photos of the connections.
They are Brown - 12v Supply
White/red - Starter Solenoide ( Sprung )
White/Green - Radio
White - No 9 Fuse, Ign. Relay, Ign.Warning Light, Ballast Resistor, Fog Light Switch, Low Fuel Light, Brake Fail Light, Brake Pad Light.



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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by philhoward » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:40 pm

Ian Lock wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:30 pm
Look at my thread " Ignition Switch Not Working " that has photos of the connections.
They are Brown - 12v Supply
White/red - Starter Solenoide ( Sprung )
White/Green - Radio
White - No 9 Fuse, Ign. Relay, Ign.Warning Light, Ballast Resistor, Fog Light Switch, Low Fuel Light, Brake Fail Light, Brake Pad Light.
No No.9 fuse on an SS1, but it does generally feed the same sort of items - anything under “Ignition Control”.


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Tips on electrical fault when starting? Before I take it all apart...

Post by Moschops » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:01 pm

I reckon next time I'm out there I'll try a simple test with a screwdriver; just join the brown wire electrode to the green/white one, and see what I get. If screwdrivers across electrodes makes everything work, it's time for a new switch. They sure do look expensive!


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