Corky's Scimitars & S2K

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Post by Corky » Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:41 am

Dcrosby13 wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:17 am
How much investment do you think it will take to be competitive with the other S2000's?
I would estimate about £600-£1000 for shocks and springs and about £1000-£1500 in wheels and tyres. The diff can be done for a couple of hundred if you do the work yourself. Then there’s probably £300 in other bits and pieces.


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Post by CNHSS1 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:28 pm

Nice job Corky 8)


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Post by Corky » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:45 pm

Corky wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 10:02 am
So an interesting day at Aintree in the S2K yesterday. :lol:

Just to set the scene.......

My car is a very original 2003 AP1 with standard 16” wheels and road tyres 225/50/16 rear and 205/55/16 front. The brakes are standard and the suspension is all 104,000 miles old. I could have entered it in the standard class, but chose to enter the big boys road going class where modifications are allowed. Since buying it in April, I’d only driven the car about 200 road miles and had never taken it near a track.

The opposition: All had 17” wheels with semi-slick track tyres, at least 245/35/17 rear and up to 235 wide up front. All had a little anti-axle tramp gizmo, lower diff ratio, full aftermarket adjustable coil over suspension, mix and match ARBs to kill the notorious oversteer (particularly bad on the model of car I’ve bought, so they tell me :lol: ). Oh, and the drivers have been pedalling their cars for years.

What could possibly go wrong?

My target was to try and equal some of my best times at Aintree in the Scimitars. I’d previously done a 52 secs in DET SS1 that Steve and Josh now own, and I’d done 54secs in the white Sabre Turbo. I haven’t run my blue SS1 there. I’ve had class wins and lower prizes, so I like to think I know my way round.

I should’ve done my research better, as it turns out that Aintree isn’t the best circuit for the Honda, as the times of the RoadGoing guys (with modifications) are similar to those of the Scimitar.

So how did it go?

Practice 1. 56.98secs

There was a lot of learning to do as the car is a completely different beast to the Nissan Scims. Despite it revving to 9000 rpm, there are absolutely no guts below 6500rpm. If you find yourself in too high a gear below that, you have to wait for it to pick up. To try and counter this I kept my foot flat to the floor in lower gears but hit the rev limiter twice.
Even so, I was only 3 secs off the quick S2K guys and on par with the MX5s in my class, who had prepped their cars in a similar way to the other Hondas.

P2 58.15secs

Found a new trick, not just hitting the rev limiter but also managing to go from 2nd to 5th. The others did similar times to their first run.

T1 59.08secs

I’ve now find another skill to add to the list, I can go from 3rd to 4th whilst trying to drop to 2nd as well as executing the other two skills all on the same run :evil: . I definitely didn’t have my head in the right place, as I was getting frustrated and trying too hard. I needed to calm things down. Luckily it was now lunch time.

I’d learnt that there was a problem corner. By turn 1 I was up into 3rd, but by time I was appexing the revs had dropped below 6500, meaning it was then bogging down on the run to the right hander turn 2. Chatting with Matt he told me that with their lower diff ratio they just take it in third without an issue, but said that he used to take it in 2nd (before mods) but it didn’t feel any quicker. So that was my plan for the next run. Another issue was the brakes, they were just too good :lol: , I found I was braking as if I was in the Scim, but one touch of these bad boys and the speed disappeared instantly.

T2 57.65

A slight improvement but my plan for the 2nd gear run around turn 1 was flawed. I hit the rev limiter before the turn in point which slowed the entry. The exit was fantastic and the run to turn 2 was like being shot from a cannon, but the time was already lost. The entry into Bechers was pretty good, but cocked up the up shift to fifth after the exit and hit the rev limiter again before the finish line.

T3 56.33secs

This was by far the most satisfying run, it wasn’t without mistake but felt good. I took turn 1 in 3rd but changed to 2nd mid corner. This upset the car, but gave a reasonable run to turn 2. An indicated 105mph down to Bechers, not a bad turn in, but hit the bumps on the tarmac and fought it back into line, hunkered down for the rest of the bend with my foot flat. I got so carried away that I didn’t slow down after beam and got an indicated 117mph before hitting the brakes.

I’ve got some video of this run which I’ll post later.

So where was I against the other Hondas? At best 2 secs away, and worst 3secs away. Which (excuses alert!!!) I didn’t think was too bad on skinny road tyres with original well used suspension. Not to mention, being absolutely clueless on how to drive the thing competitively. The oversteer thing was there in abundance, very noticeable on the first right hander and on the entry to Bechers, but great fun correcting it :D

I’m going to do the spreadsheet thing later and see where those times would put me against my other Scim runs at Aintree. I’m guessing the times will be virtually equal with handicap applied. But both of those Scims had had a huge amount of work to make them go quicker, whereas the Honda is absolute stock basic and well used. To get my car to the levels of the other Honda boys will take some investment, but it would produce a car that is great on CM handicap. Although the SS1s aren’t as competitive on handicap against the moderns, there is a certain raw charm that makes them more fun to drive.

All in all, a great learning experience. I’m now looking to see if I can slot in another non CM event :D
And here is the video



.......and photos by our official photographer Tom.
DSC05772.JPG
DSC05772.JPG (256.44 KiB) Viewed 553 times
DSC05676.JPG
DSC05676.JPG (212.12 KiB) Viewed 553 times


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Post by Nick » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:40 pm

Corky,

Interesting ! You are going through what I did in the MR2, although the Honda is 50 bhp up. Weight similar.

Do you have a full harness?
I notice the much better brakes ands still brake a bit early
I have added a 5th gear stop. You probably can't do this
I get frustrated by the poor torque after the Scim. I live with hitting the rev limiter sometimes. Tracks like Prescott are hopeless. Ty Croes is OK
16 fronts and 17 rears with slightly better tyres have found me over a second on the average track (standard are 15's)

Have fun!


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Post by Corky » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:00 pm

No harness Nick, just a standard seatbelt. But plenty of air bags and crumple zones. Not ideal, but none of the other Hondas had them either.

I've run the figures through the spreadsheet taking into account driver weight and the CM 2.25% 1B handicap. As I predicted it puts my times from the DET/Sabre/Honda within a fraction of each other;

DET - 50.60 (actual 52.73) (25/04/2015) (Handicap 95.96%)
Sabre - 51.19 (actual 54.38) (25/06/2016) (Handicap 94.14%)
Honda - 51.41 (actual 56.33) (29/06/2019) (Handicap 91.28%)

The figures are a little flawed because they weren't all run on the same day, and I was driving the Honda without any previous experience (So made plenty of mistakes :lol: ). Given a few more events, I'm convinced that I'd blitz the handicapped times I did in the DET. And this is without lifting a spanner. Add in some trick bits, and it'd be very competitive.

I'm not for minute suggesting you all sell your Scimitars and buy a Honda, I just think this was an interesting exercise. I'm keeping hold of the SS1, and will no doubt be out in it again next year. I've spent enough on it, without spending on the Honda as well :wink:


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Post by swoakes » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:13 pm

Well done Corky and some useful data :wink:

Your calculations confirm what team Oakes have felt for a while as regards the CM handicapping system.

To be a true "drivers championship" adjustments are needed to compensate for "technology".

Easier said than done though sadly.


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Post by Corky » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:21 pm

It's a tough one Steve, because some of the TVRs and the Morgans are very competitive in CM, and in some cases they have arguably older tech than the Scims.


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Post by swoakes » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:29 pm

Corky wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:21 pm
It's a tough one Steve, because some of the TVRs and the Morgans are very competitive in CM, and in some cases they have arguably older tech than the Scims.
Yep agreed


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Post by BigBobPilot » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:52 am

At the risk of hijacking your thread Corky, no handicapping system is perfect. As ever, cars need to be chosen & built to the regs. Re. old tech v's new, you'd get similar comments in a chat to the guys running V6 Scims against SS1 turbos with the boost wound up. That's running virtually the same handicap system.

If anything, your handicap figures are pretty close for 3 different cars.


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Post by Corky » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:25 am

BigBobPilot wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:52 am
At the risk of hijacking your thread Corky, no handicapping system is perfect. As ever, cars need to be chosen & built to the regs. Re. old tech v's new, you'd get similar comments in a chat to the guys running V6 Scims against SS1 turbos with the boost wound up. That's running virtually the same handicap system.

If anything, your handicap figures are pretty close for 3 different cars.
Absolutely, my point is that the S2000 is very competitive on handicap as a “stock” car. Add a few non handicap affecting mods and they take a huge leap forward that is difficult to reach in an SS1 with mods.
Josh did a tremendous job in the DET SS1 in posting quicker times than the leaders, but factor in the handicap (that came as a result of the mods required to get him there) and he dropped down the order.

It’s a tough one, but there will always be cars that struggle and benefit from a one size fits all handicapping system. Personally I think CM are doing a great job considering the breadth of car vintages, design and technology. As I say, some of the Morgans and TVRs do OK, whilst others of similar vintage struggle a bit. Maybe there is an SS1 formula that will work, but we just haven’t found it yet. Perhaps we’re heading in the wrong direction and power needs to be turned down and not up ????


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Post by philhoward » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:57 am

Corky wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:25 am
It’s a tough one, but there will always be cars that struggle and benefit from a one size fits all handicapping system. Personally I think CM are doing a great job considering the breadth of car vintages, design and technology. As I say, some of the Morgans and TVRs do OK, whilst others of similar vintage struggle a bit. Maybe there is an SS1 formula that will work, but we just haven’t found it yet. Perhaps we’re heading in the wrong direction and power needs to be turned down and not up ????
This might be a simplistic view but if the championship leader board and the the Handicap figures are in the same order, then no - the handicap system isn't sufficient. Do you need > 200bhp/ton to get into the top half of the scores? It looks like it..

An SS1 against a GTE is, as Ben says, the Ti versus S2k/Boxster/BMW brigade. If you want silverware, then using an SS1 in CM isn't the right place unless you go bonkers with it in which case you lose it as a road car - and that's the old argument again.

To be honest, if a car like the Honda doesn't beat an 1800Ti out of the box given the technological advances that have come between the early 80's and the late 90's, I'd be wanting my money back. On handicap, several of my old (post-2010) company cars can probably get me better scores according to the spreadsheet than our SS1 BUT that's not why I'm doing it. I'm seeing where I fit in the order of things and pitching my battles accordingly. CM is a mechanism in which the SSSC can continue which works for me personally.

Question is - which did you enjoy driving the most around a track? The S2k or the Ti?... :w


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Post by scimjim » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:04 am

The only true drivers championship would be in strictly controlled identical cars - handicap championships are just trying to get hugely different cars as close as possible to make it interesting.


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Post by Corky » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:05 pm

To be perfectly honest Phil, both are great but very different. If I could pick and choose (purely on a smiles per miles basis), I’d take the S2000 to Anglesey, Blyton and Croft, and take the SS1 to the hills, Curbs and Three Sisters.


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Post by CNHSS1 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:53 pm

philhoward wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:57 am
Corky wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:25 am
It’s a tough one, but there will always be cars that struggle and benefit from a one size fits all handicapping system. Personally I think CM are doing a great job considering the breadth of car vintages, design and technology. As I say, some of the Morgans and TVRs do OK, whilst others of similar vintage struggle a bit. Maybe there is an SS1 formula that will work, but we just haven’t found it yet. Perhaps we’re heading in the wrong direction and power needs to be turned down and not up ????
This might be a simplistic view but if the championship leader board and the the Handicap figures are in the same order, then no - the handicap system isn't sufficient. Do you need > 200bhp/ton to get into the top half of the scores? It looks like it..

An SS1 against a GTE is, as Ben says, the Ti versus S2k/Boxster/BMW brigade. If you want silverware, then using an SS1 in CM isn't the right place unless you go bonkers with it in which case you lose it as a road car - and that's the old argument again.

To be honest, if a car like the Honda doesn't beat an 1800Ti out of the box given the technological advances that have come between the early 80's and the late 90's, I'd be wanting my money back. On handicap, several of my old (post-2010) company cars can probably get me better scores according to the spreadsheet than our SS1 BUT that's not why I'm doing it. I'm seeing where I fit in the order of things and pitching my battles accordingly. CM is a mechanism in which the SSSC can continue which works for me personally.
Nail on head Phil :-)

And if all parameters where identical, all competitors would cross the line at same time, all finishing joint first.

It's the differences that make a horse race, as the old adage goes.

If one wishes to win CM, pick the car marque/model which suits that task best.
If you wish to win in a scimitar in SSSC, same goes.

Grins per quid from 70s 80s and early 90s, the scimitars are hard to make a case against. Simple tech, loads of knowledge and well trodden paths to performance and base costs of donor vehicle are extremely low

If you want to win events on scratch, my mate has a Gould GR55 with ex-Bennetton F1 engine hed sell you for north of £100k?... form an orderly queue Gents


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Post by CNHSS1 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:53 pm

But a S2000 motor in an SS1... 8)


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